ELGRANDE

[Rimshot]

I hope you are following the latest evidence about Hillsborough. Who opened the gates ? Look at the pictures of the 96 dead, children, fresh faced kids, mums, clean-cut young men. Doesn't really add up to a bunch of drunken thugs does it ?

[Garawa]

Not worth raking over this ground again Rimshot but I will say one thing.....I have a big issue with this and I hate the fact EVERYONE was to blame apart from the fans. UNQUESTIONABLY those who died played no part in it, it was disgraceful and horrific and should never have happened. I have watched the footage again and again and I still see the same thing, thousands of fans outside pushing like mad to get in. It was quoted an officer opened the gate because he feared there would be fatalities if he didn't. How we can criminalise people for not using hindsight is outrageous....how could they possibly have known?

This happened because of a whole host of failings; Overticketing from the FA, Sheff Wed not implementing improvements to Hillsborough, the police opening gates and aggressive actions of the fans outside. In this new inquest, the latter is the only part not being questioned. Justice for the 96 yes fine, they of course were totally innocent in all of this but their families won't accept some of their own fans played a very key role. Had they not pushed like mad it would never have happened.

[Elgrande]

Thanks Gary;
Rimshot; you must be aware that this investigation has basically been told to avoid any fan involvement. Of course the police were at fault, but to be fair they were dealing with a huge hooligan problem at the time, but to try and whitewash any fans involvement is just taking PC to far. Liverpool fans were infamous for turning up late and "boosting" into grounds. Maybe you should read some of the books written about the era by the naughty boys of the day. Every single one of them mentions the same things; Liverpool fans "steaming" on away trips to Europe and " boosting" at away grounds in England. I have a disliked for the attitude of the Scally type Scousers because of personal experience and you ask most other "fans" of the era and they will say the same.
Meet my friend Stanley!

[Rimshot]

You are both revisiting your previous comments which overwhelmingly attributed the blame to LFC supporters. Show me a ground in the country which doesn't have its share of louts and drunkards. The facts are quite clear - the fans didn't have responsibility for organising crowd control, or allowing the build up of turnstile queues or opening the gate which led directly to the deaths . Police lied on the day, they planted beer cans and bottles, they threw people back into the melee, they tried to stop fans using hoardings as stretchers and they colluded over a period of time to falsify statements by witnesses and each other.

In short, the police did what they invariable do at football matches and that's to treat everyone as if they we're a criminal, It's the default position now adopted by the likes of the GFC stewards. I'm no defender of football hooligans but the vast majority of us going to games are not in that category. I believe your prejudicial views of what you term 'scouters' are getting in the way of clear judgement.

[Garawa]

There were some huge failings, some incomprehensible which of course needs addressing but I fear the whole thing is an attempt to find a scapegoat for the entire disaster. If the police were at fault for one part then they must be responsible for every single part of it. That, I'm sure, will be the outcome. Forget that many were there due to over-allocated tickets. Forget that some died because alterations should have been made to the stadium but wasn't. Everyone will forget to question the surging of the hundreds of fans outside the ground.

In a disaster often there are multiple failings. At present they seem intent to hang out to dry a policeman who didn't have experience of the situation because, let's face it, we have these types of incidents very week!

[Elgrande]

The "new" investigation has had specific instructions to ignore any problems caused by the fans. Yes; the Police cocked it up, but the behaviour of the fans outside did not help. I suggest you listen to the interview on 5 Live just before the Istanbul game. The interviewer asked if the fans had tickets; the answer was no but we will get in anyway, doesn't that seem a bit strange considering Hillsborough? Totally different was the answer! Then for some reason the BBC pulled the interviews?

[lidbid46]

it could have happened anywhere at that time. I remember a league cup semi final at White Heart lane, Spurs v Chelsea, with 63000 people crammed into the ground. I was at the back of the Paxton Road end at the beginning, the front at half time and the side at the end and my feet never touched the ground. I could't even move my arms. I didn't see anything apart from when the ball was in the air and was terrified the whole time. I was about 16 and remember being very grateful when I got on the tube at the end and knew I was going to make it home in one piece. I didn't go to another big game for years after that and it is still one of the reasons I prefer going to Gillingham than to Premier League games. In those days, the clubs and authorities had no idea about fans safety and just sold as many tickets as they could get away with. People laugh about health and safety these days and it does go too far at times, but there should never be acceptance of people not returning home from a football match.

[CadburyMan]

No matter the fault, and I have my view, the most disturbing thing is the tissue of lies covering up all the "competencies*

[Elgrande]

Oh I agree; the lies are terrible, but so is the now established idea that the happy Tarby like fans had no blame at all. Anyone on here ever been to a Liverpool home or away game in the late 70's or 80's?

[Garawa]

This is the key issue and a complete answer will never be found, the waters have been muddied so much that nobody seems able to differentiate the various parts. The lies were appalling and need addressing but the lies did NOT cause the crush which is the objective of the inquest. Finding a scapegoat that caused the whole disaster seems to be the key objective to make the lies irrelevant. There are 3 major parts in my book all separate. Firstly the amount of Liverpool fans all pushing and shoving is totally separate to the fans inside the ground who died and should be dealt with accordingly rather than simply grouping them all together as Liverpool fans. Next there is the issue of how and why those fans died (what they should be doing at the inquest now) and lastly the issue of the cover up which happened after the event. If one person was to blame for the whole disaster (s)he might not be the one responsible for the whole cover up. Its like investigating the last recession and blaming it one bank when interest rates and other issues may have played a significant part.